Curse

holden · Apr 13, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

@ LouAl - it's not that I doubt you, but is there a second opinion on the clumsiness trigger. I thought that "attack" covered melee/physical and spell/signet attacks. The only things left out would be stuff that targets allies/self e.g heals, hex removals etc.

you have to attack with your weapon.

Hella Good · Apr 13, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I think that by randomly spamming Diversion and filling in the recharge gap with whatever it is you are using (Backfire, Guilt, Shame, whathaveyou) you will achieve a better result than using Migraine and watching each and every interrupt. If a random Diversion shutdown beats a well-thought Migraine interrupt, what more can I say...

Theos · Apr 13, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

This is really not meant to be rude at all but its going to sound it. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. Diversion is pointless in GVG? Are you kidding me? Diversion is AWESOME in PVP.... AWESOME!

Learn to play a bit in high lvl PVP. Before you make judgement calls on things you know little about. Im sorry, Im not trying to be rude but your comments erk me.

Holden said it best. Most mesmers take both blackout and Diversion. Why this turned into a huge debate on which to take Im not really sure. I made the argument that if you were to take one, in HA/GVG Diversion is superior and I know this is true because Ive tested it, Ive read the forums, I've looked at the top guilds and I've talked about it wtih people in game and on this site. I highly doubt that EVERYONE is wrong. As said, its good to take both in some situations but if I had the choice of one or the other its Diversion hands down.

You assume that I have no played "high" level PvP. You are wrong I have. I know quite well, I have tried using Diversion and it did not fit my taste. Having to guess when someone IS going to cast and then hoping they cast within ~6 seconds and no removal is not something I want to run.

Do inform me why a Mesmer running 16 Dom Blackout would bother running Diversion. You BO(for what 7-8 seconds was it?) then cast your spells and BO again. Why the hell would you put Diversion in too waste your time?

Simply:

Blackout, following recharge quickly cast your short cast time spells and BO again. I see no real use for Diversion and its uber conditionality. Though perhaps you have some ingenious reason to take Diversion that is simply so godlike that it can't be beat.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Apr 13, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

are you saying you'll cast res sig to counter diversion?
a boon prot has NO 'fodder skills'. every skill is important. if your build has 'fodder skills' it's not a very well thought out build.

I'm saying that there are hexes that some other casters carry instead of the classic "boon prot" such that smite hex would be worthless if you are against a team without hexes, like holy veil which boon prot DOES have and is thus worthless vs a team without hexes. You are wrong-think it through. Same goes for mend ailment if the other team is not using conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

what's your point here? diversion causes the skill essentially to cooldown for 59 seconds. where do you get 6? are you confusing diversion with ether lord?

Diversion lasts 6 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

this is laughable. what boonprot monk uses word of healing.
wastrels worry is a fine cover hex for diversion. unless you plan on keeping up holy veil the whole fight.

Wastrel's worry is not a good skill, and I quote Avarre on that. Again there are other classes in this game besides boonprot, other monks even, despite popular belief

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

that's a ridiculous thing to say and totally false. though i agree your migraine build won't take him down.

Lastly; on my comment about the fodder skill-if that elementalist is casting a skill that is going to kill you, or that warrior that is going to kill you, or whatever is going to kill you (reverse the circumstance for a monk about to heal someone who is about to be killed) I would take interrupting that attack/heal over anything else.
Now for a real scenario; back to my obsidian flame.

You are at 100 health even, the elementalist is casting obsidian flame, and you know he is targeting you.
You can do the following;
A. Cast diversion.
B. Use black out to interrupt the skill
C. Interrupt him
D. Cast migraine then interrupt him
E. Ask for a heal REALLY quickly and hope the monk does it without asking questions
Diversion has absolutly no use in this scenario; period.

Lets take a look at another one
The monk is about to cast a heal spell on someone who is about to die on their team
A. Use diversion; which lengthy cast time will allow them to get several heals off.
B. Use black out; which will not stop the heal at the moment but has a chance to interrupt a future one and WILL lock him down.
C. Interrupt him
D. Cast migraine; interrupt any further skills he tries to cast.
E. Tell your team to spike the enamy harder because you cannot seem to do your job.
I certainly hope you picked choice C; although B and D are great as well. Diversion still, has no use.

Last scenario
Same one with the monk, but lets suppose for some awkward reason, all of our spells cast instantly while time stops for us to think about what to do.
The warrior about to kill our ele is at 40 health, and 3 energy; the ele has been drained of all energy for some reason while the warrior has no hate on him (blind, weakness, whatever he has avoided hate, martyr, spell breaker, whatever no hate) The monk is going to cast a heal spell on the warrior, he is the last monk on their team.
What do you do?
A. Cast Diversion; it will not stop his heal, but will hopfully put him where he will not cast it.
B. Cast Blackout; so it will no matter what stop his heals.
C. Interrupt his spells; the warrior cannot be healed.
This case shows that saving the warrior now is likly the best canidate for winning the match. If the monk saves the warrior, your team loses the elementalist. If the monk casts through diversion it likely will not matter, he will lose a heal spell for 60 seconds, but he may have more; in truth you do not know. The monk has traded a skill, disabled for 60 seconds, to save not only his team's warrior, but kill your elemenalist. While however using option B or C will, no matter what, kill that warrior albeit indirectly, the warrior will be dead-and their monk will be either blackedout, or you will suddenly be at a surplus of energy.

A. You lose an ele, they keep their warrior, the lose 1 skill for 60 seconds.
B. They lose the warrior, they lose their monk for 6-7 seconds.
C. They lose the warrior, you gain energy.

I think that should sum things up nicely.

The Real Roy Keane · Apr 14, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

I think that should sum things up nicely.

But you just created three situations in a attempt to prove your point..that's a poor way of arguing your case.

seven · Apr 14, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

hmm, from comparing diversion with interrupts, it then became diversion and blackout...

just an actual observation though,

i've been watching the fights of top guilds in obsever mode lately,
and yes i can confirm that they use diversion *and* blackout extensively.
you can look at EviL matches sometime, mes #1 uses diversion, mes #2 uses blackout.
i have also noticed that their mesmers do not use interrupts, nor migraine.

so yes, diversion may not fit the taste of some, but yes they are being used by the best guilds in GvG at the moment. in that regard, i find the previous comments about its weakness in the PvP aspect false. i doubt that they made it to the top rankings by bringing along a skill they find "no real use for".

scenarios and theories may always clash, but the only way to prove one is in actual practice.
right now, the best guilds use diversion, and they use it quite well ... only way to disprove that skill is by actually beating the top who uses them. unless you can prove it and able to defeat EviL or other top guilds that use diversion, its hard to believe in that kind of anti-diversion reasoning.

.

LouAl · Apr 14, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

you have to attack with your weapon.

quoted for truth

I believe it also covers things like Smite, which is not actually a weapon attack, but it is an attack (I am pretty sure on this, but not 100%). It does not trigger on things like Meteor Shower, Backfire, Vampiric Touch, or any enchantments, hexes, spells, skills, etc.

This whole thread is turning into a flame fest.

Let me say this. Just because you don't (or someone else doesn't) like a skill doen't make it crap. Diversion is a good skill, Blackout is a good skill, Wastrel's Worry is a good skill, Ethereal Burden is a good skill...list any skill and I am sure that a good use can be found for it.

Edit: if I could close this thread I would...

Eaimirth Etaivella · Apr 14, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

But you just created three situations in a attempt to prove your point..that's a poor way of arguing your case.

If you would like to form some scenarios where diversion is better; be my guest.

Hella Good · Apr 14, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Echo + Diversion + Blackout + Guilt/Shame + Arcane Thevery = caster is completely shut down. Lemme see you survive through this.

You can even take SoH to spice it up...

Valkyries · Apr 14, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

quoted for truth

This whole thread is turning into a flame fest.

Edit: if I could close this thread I would...

Agree completely.

Which is why Im giving up. I said my piece. People want to use Blackout go ahead and use Blackout. There is nothing wrong with it, is just pisses me off that people are like "Diversion sucks, blah blah blah" who obviously have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

So you continue to use what spells you want and Ill use mine.

Mouse at Large · Apr 14, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

you have to attack with your weapon.

Not to flog a dead horse, but I'm sure it works on stomping attacks as well....

Aethan · Apr 14, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by What if...

you come across a player in the process of casting a [...] spell

If I recall correctly, the shutdown part of Diversion triggers when the target begins casting, so in this situation Diversion won't do much at all.

LouAl · Apr 14, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aethan

If I recall correctly, the shutdown part of Diversion triggers when the target begins casting, so in this situation Diversion won't do much at all.

The skill description reads "...the next time target foe uses a skill..."

A skill isn't actually used until it is finished casting. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that is the way it works. If I remember correctly I have used guilt and shame in the way described by the op and it works (easier to tell if it works because they interrupt and you gain energy).

Aethan · Apr 14, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

You're probably right, it seems to work that way when I test it on others. Could've sworn I've had it trigger on me when I start to use a skill, but I can't find any Diversion-using mobs to test it out. /shrug

Demon Rebel · Apr 14, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

The losauro WindCasters out of Destiny's Gorge use it I think...

twicky_kid · Apr 14, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

You can cancel your spell before end casting time and it does not trigger diversion.

That's just about the only counter atm. Have to be sharp.

Banebow · Apr 15, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

You BO(for what 7-8 seconds was it?) then cast your spells and BO again. Why the hell would you put Diversion in too waste your time?

It is a 7 second duration at 16 dom. magic, with a 12 second cooldown. Instead of using blackout or diversion, why not use both? Black them out, then after the 5 second recharge is done on you the diversion can be cast. It will land just as they fully recharge, so they will either wait even longer for it to get removed, cast through it, or try to wait it out. But you can blackout again before it goes off, and diversion again once that blackout goes off. . .seems decently effective shutdown to me, although requiring melee range on the target would turn nasty quickly, and it would require immediate use of the recharged blackout. I don't see how this is a waste of time.

As to which is better (blackout versus diversion) they both have drawbacks. With blackout, the mesmer needs to touch the target. Sure, no big deal when you hit a warrior with it, but what about when you want to blackout a monk? Diversion has normal spell range. On the other hand, diversion is not guaranteed the full effect, and blackout is. Diversion provides longer lockdown, but blackout does all skills. And so on.

They are both good skills. We could go on for weeks creating situations in which blackout is always better, or diversion is always better. But what good will it do? If you are at a point in build X where you need to pick one, find out what the other people on your team are using, ask them what sort of shutdown they can support/are looking for, and run that.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Apr 15, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I agree that both are good skills; I perfer blackout because it has a 100% chance of lock down, on all their skills, cannot be removed, and counters a skill in casting.

LightningHell · Apr 15, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Remember, Diversion is not to be used as an interrupt. They are used entirely differently. One you (try to) spam, one you wait and use.

IMO, Diversion is just more...useful. Fire and forget.